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Source: Al-Andalus Tribune Podcast
I did this interview with Eddie of The Deen Show shortly before traveling to Brussels, Amsterdam, and Malaga. Now that I’m back home in Morocco I’ve had time to edit the transcript. -KB
Transcript
Tucker Carlson etc.: “Building 7 was never hit by a plane. Why did it fall down? There was never a steel building that ever clashed. And all the wackos would be like, ‘Building seven, building seven.’ I'd be like, ‘Shut up, wackos.’ And Donald Trump, which I'll give you a copy. I've seen it. In his own words, says, (Trump:) ‘I happen to think that they had not only a plane, but they had bombs that exploded almost simultaneously cuz I just can't imagine the evidence in the Twin Towers and the third uh skyscraper.” Kevin Barrett to Hannity” “It was a brainwashing operation…"
The Deen Show: Today we'll be talking about the biggest event in US history that reshaped how Americans viewed Islam and Muslims. But alhamdulillah we are seeing the tide is shifting. Conversations on this topic are happening not just on the fringes but in the mainstream. We're seeing it on the news. Senators, members of Congress are asking questions. Even some of the biggest voices in media are starting to ask these questions that were once considered off limits. The event that launched us into war after war, that reshaped how the American public looked at Muslims and Islam, it's being re-examined. For over two decades, the shadow of that day reshaped our foreign policy, our media, and the subconscious of every American. But now, something is changing. And to talk about that shift, I'm joined by someone who's been ahead of this curve for years, probably the most qualified people that I know to talk about this topic.
Dr. Kevin Barrett is a PhD scholar, a former lecturer at the University of Wisconsin. He was let go not for misconduct, but for doing what this country was once proud of: encouraging students to think critically, to question narratives, freedom of speech…
Bill O’Reilly (clip): There's a fringe gentleman out there that believes the US government orchestrated 9/11. That is President Bush and the American military killed 3000 people. One of those pushing this theory is Kevin Barrett, who actually taught at the University of Wisconsin this fall. He joins us now from Madison. You know, there's no sense in debating this issue. I had one of your compadres on a couple of months ago…
Kevin Barrett (clip): Well, you know, uh, Bill, it's actually been one of the best things that ever happened to me. And in fact, we're not a fringe element. The latest polls show that 84% of the American people do not accept the 9/11 Commission report. Only 16% of the American people believe the government is telling the truth about 9/11. That's a New York Times poll that came out several months ago.
(More clips of Kevin Barrett debating O’Reilly and Sean Hannity on Fox News)
At that time his words, his views were controversial. But today, the biggest name Fox News has ever produced, Tucker Carlson, is asking those very same questions Dr. Barrett raised years ago. Dr. Barrett, welcome to the show.
Hey, thank you, Eddie. Asalamu alaikum. Great to be back with you.
Walaykum. Salam. Greetings of peace. How have you been?
I'm doing well. Alhamdulillah. I moved to Morocco about two years ago and it was a little bit of an adjustment, but it's gone great overall. I'm very happy to be here hearing the adhan five times a day, living with people who see things closer to the way I do. So, alhamdulillah, it's a great place.
Give us a little bit of recap of that history that I opened up with professor at the Wisconsin University and then you were let go. Was it for misconduct?
Uh, no. Actually, they did a very thorough investigation just to see if there maybe had been some kind of misconduct somewhere and they came up empty. This was after I was ambushed by Fox News.
It actually started with a right-wing radio host in Milwaukee named Jessica McBride. And it was an orchestrated campaign to try to produce some mainstream media publicity against the 9/11 truth movement in general and the professors who were jumping on board with Scholars for 9/11 Truth in particular. So this was in June of 2006. It pretty much killed my academic career because I didn't want to roll over and go away like my administration suggested I should. So they they investigated me and they found that I had high ratings as a teacher and I'd never done anything wrong. So they said, "Well, we're really sorry. We can't fire this guy." And then the Republicans in the Wisconsin legislature voted almost unanimously to have the university fire me, but the university refused.
So this fight went on for about six months. I got six months worth of five minutes of fame. But by the end of it I was pretty much unemployable in any American university. I had been on a a year-to-year contract and nobody at that point was likely to give me any more of those contracts because they lost a lot of money. The university lost half a million dollars overnight when I appeared on Hannity, and that was just contributions canceled to the engineering school alone. So yeah, it was an interesting experience in academic unfreedom. And things aren't any better now with people being attacked for opposing the genocide of Gaza. America isn't the beacon of freedom that it used to be.
We're recording this on July 4th. Maybe some patriotic Americans will think about that and think about trying to restore freedom to their country. Let me get into this video because at that time this is probably the biggest star of Fox News, way bigger than Hannity. You were debating Hannity at that time. And now the former Fox News star Tucker Carlson is actually in line with what you were saying. Let's have a look.
Tucker Carlson with Ron Johnson: You tried the other day to raise science-based questions about 9/11, and you asked, "Building 7 was never hit by a plane. Why did it fall down in exactly the same way the first two towers did?" Witnesses, first responders, kept saying they heard explosions before the buildings came down. There was never a steel building that ever collapsed because of a fire.
Isn't that ironic? So, this is Tucker Carlson and he actually has a senator, Senator Ron Johnson, asking the same questions that you were asking at that time, and you were asking your students the same questions. You get let go. You lose your career over this thing that they're actually bringing up now.
Yeah. The irony is it's Fox News and the biggest star in the Wisconsin Republican party: former Fox News host Tucker Carlson, and Ron Johnson, who's the biggest Wisconsin Republican.
Back in 2006 Fox News and the Wisconsin Republicans were screaming to get me thrown out of the university for saying exactly the same things that Tucker Carlson and Ron Johnson are saying today. So, it's funny how what comes around goes around, I guess. But yeah, I have a tremendous respect for Senator Johnson's courage, and I appreciate that Tucker Carlson has finally started asking those hard questions.
Do you think the tide is shifting now? This was something taboo to talk about, but they're actually discussing it now. You have this senator. We're going to play another clip with another congressman. We'll play a clip also from the news. What goes through your mind when you're seeing this? You just mentioned this is a senator from Wisconsin.
That's right. Like I said, when I was fighting for academic freedom in 2006 it was a straightup party-line issue. The Democrats were almost unanimously in favor of allowing me to continue to teach and ask whatever questions I wanted to ask because that's academic freedom. And the Republicans were all saying I should be fired because I was unpatriotic and I was teaching crazy conspiracy theories. But somewhere things flipped. I suppose maybe Trump had something to do with that. So today it's Tucker Carlson, the former Fox News host, and Ron Johnson, the biggest Republican out of Wisconsin, who are are saying those things.
It's funny…before I left for Morocco two years ago, I started hanging around with some of these Wisconsin Republicans, and a whole bunch of them have come around on 9/11—some of them because I converted them back in 2006 and they've been slowly spreading the word ever since. So you can't completely bottle up the truth forever.
What do you see happening now? But before that, let's get into another congressman here.
Tucker Carlson with former Congressman Curt Weldon: It's our country. It happened to 3000 of our fellow Americans. We have an absolute right to know what happened. It’s not even a question. And it was almost 25 years ago. So, like, spare me your lectures about national security. But, can I ask you this? So, by the way, I never questioned anything about 9/11 and I actively attacked people who did. I'm ashamed of that, but that's a fact. I did it on tape more than once. My feeling was, well, you know, like that's divisive or whatever. I was a child and an idiot. But what began to make me wonder, and I have no idea what happened to Building 7, but it's very clear that there's a lot of lying around the collapse of building. And all the wackos would be like, "Building seven, building seven." I'd be like, "Shut up, wackos." And then if you just sort of look at it, you're like, "Well, that is very weird. Actually, no plane hit that building." And…does this happen a lot when buildings catch fire?
Weldon: Besides being a firefighter, I work for the INA, largest insurance company in North America. I was responsible for training their fire protection arson people for years. That doesn't happen. You never have a 47-story building just collapse. Even Donald Trump, I have a tape of him speaking on 9/11. And Donald Trump, in his own words, says there was a hole in the steel.
Trump: And this is steel that was, you remember the width of the windows in the World Trade Center. I think you know if you were ever up there, they were quite narrow. And in between was this heavy steel. I said, "How could a plane, even a plane, even a or or whatever it might have been, how could it possibly go through this steel?" I happen to think that they had not only a plane, but they had bombs that exploded almost simultaneously, because I just can't imagine anything being able to go through that wall. Most buildings are built with the steelers on the inside around the elevator shaft. This one was built from the outside, which is the strongest structure you can have, and it was almost just like a can of soup.
Tucker Carlson: That's controlled demolition. Even Donald Trump believes it was a controlled demolition. Do you know this, congressman? What are your thoughts?
Kevin Barrett: Yeah, that's Congressman Curt Weldon. He tried to open up an investigation of certain aspects of 9/11 back in 2005. I was strongly supporting him at the time. He wanted to investigate why… He was hearing from whistleblowers like Colonel Anthony Schaefer who had worked for a terrorist tracking division of the US military. Anthony Schaefer had uncovered many of the alleged hijackers, who of course didn't hijack anything. But anyway he had been all over those guys like a year before 9/11, and he had been ordered by his superiors to forget that he had ever heard of Muhammad Atta or these other people who would later be blamed for 9/11. He was actually told to put little yellow sticky pads over their faces on his huge wall chart that he had built featuring many of these people who would later be blamed for 9/11. He was told to forget about them, put yellow sticky pads over their faces “and we don't ever want you to look into this again.” So when Weldon heard this, he was a congressman. I think he was from Pennsylvania if I recall. He and Colonel Schaefer went to Weldon and others and tried to get an investigation going of “what did the US intelligence services know and when did they know it about these alleged hijackers?” And then of course some dubious characters ginned up various kinds of political pushback against Weldon and got him forced out of Congress.
Interestingly, Eddie, back in 2005 I had actually called Wisconsin Public Radio during an interview with Senator Barbara Boxer, the US Senator from California, and I said to her, "Senator Boxer, are you aware of Curt Weldon's investigation in the House of what what the services knew about these alleged hijackers before 9/11? We've learned that they trained at secure US military facilities. They were shadowed by Mossad agents. The 15 Saudis came over on special CIA snitch visas from Saudi Arabia. They were also not the least bit Islamic in their lifestyle, to say the least. They were hard drinkers, heavy drug users. The guy who was posing as Mohamed Atta, was a fluent speaker of Hebrew, which Mohamed Atta, the real Mohamed Atta, was not. He was dating a pink-haired stripper named Amanda Keller. So, anyways, I gave this spiel to Barbara Boxer on live radio and then said, "So, Senator Boxer, given all of that, do you support Congressman Weldon's call for a new investigation?" And Senator Boxer, bless her heart, answered me. She said, “Well, what you just said isn't what the 9/11 commission said, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. But my first priority is to end the war in Iraq.” That’s a direct quote from Senator Barbara Boxer. I was kind of floored by that. And of course, that created a viral story in the alternative media.
So…Curt Weldon made a good effort and I'm glad they didn't kill him. They just forced him out of Congress.
This is amazing. We're seeing all this unfolding now and there's not a American when you mention Islam that somehow in his subconscious…I was changing a flat tire and a real nice man came to help me out. After he we finished changing the tire he started talking. I offered him a smoothie and the conversation was going great. Then I asked him, "So what do you know about Islam?" He was like, "Uh, nothing except what I saw on 9/11." So there's this association in the back of people's heads with 9/11. Do you think we're at the beginning steps of that shifting, with people like Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, these congressman, senators…
And let me also show you this clip. This is from a mainstream news outlet.
Interviewer: You're not just somebody with a a wacky idea, okay? You come with some science to you. What is the official reason for the collapse of the World Trade Center towers?
Richard Gage, AIA: Well, we're told that the planes hit the buildings and there was an explosion and a fire. And about an hour and a half later in the case of the North Tower, the building collapsed due to structural weakening due to the fires. The problem is that we don't have large gradual deformations associated with the collapses. And fires in highrises have never brought down a a steel frame high-rise building at all, ever. And what we have, unfortunately, is the evidence in the Twin Towers and the third skyscraper to collapse that day, which most people don't know anything about it—we have the evidence of the ten key features of controlled demolition. In the case of Building Seven, it collapses straight down into its own footprint at free fall speed in the first 100 feet. It's dropping, as you can see, symmetrically, smoothly, at freefall speed in the first hundred feet, 2 1/2 seconds.
This is uncanny. There's 40,000 tons of structural steel designed to resist this collapse.
Interviewer: It’s a 47 story building?
Richard Gage, AIA: Yeah. This is called Building 7, a football field away from the Twin Towers.
Interviewer: Okay. So what we're showing is what happened in fact is a controlled demolition, where the people who made this happen used demolition.
Richard Gage, AIA: Indeed and this is a direct comparison. And you can indeed see that almost free fall acceleration through tons of structural steel. That is uncanny. So we have architects and engineers demanding a new investigation as a result of this evidence, and the evidence in the World Trade Center, that is very explosive. Almost every architect and engineer we show this information to agrees with us that these are controlled demolitions. If we can get them to look at the information. Because obviously the implications of a controlled demolition are dark for our country. Because that means somebody besides al Qaeda was involved, because these have to be easily three of the most highly secure buildings…
The Deen Show: Your thoughts?
Kevin Barrett: Well, it's great to say see Richard Gage getting some mainstream media attention. It's good to see this kind of information on high quality, high production values mainstream media platforms. And it's good to see people gradually waking up and realizing how important this is. It's important for a lot of reasons. One of them, as you mentioned, is that those of us who are Muslims who lived through the aftermath of this found this highly annoying and disturbing, to say the least, to have our religion smeared as this supposedly terrorist religion. It was a brainwashing operation. They clearly had thought it through and were all ready to go with the propaganda that Islam was a religion of suicidal maniacs and killers.
So that's one aspect of it. But another one is that the United States has a tradition of Enlightenment values—freedom, pluralism and so on. And all of that really took a hit on 9/11.
And then finally there's the intellectual inquiry, the scientific inquiry, the academic freedom angle. Just not being able to talk about something this big—and, frankly, this obvious—has done terrible things to America. It's turned America into a country of sheep, of cowards. The brave people who have tried to do something about this and speak out have been vilified. So the best people have been vilified, ostracized and marginalized, while the worst people, the neoconservatives who did it, have cemented their rule.
We're at a very strange moment right now, as the neoconservatives, who were the party behind 9/11—they were the intellectual authors of it—are still very much in command. But their ideology has been challenged from both the left and from the right. I think that if 9/11 really comes out clearly in such a big way that the entire mainstream media starts showing what we just saw, and admits that the truth movement was right all along, and we get some kind of official investigation that genuinely seeks the truth about this…. I think it could potentially solve a whole lot of the worst problems that we're facing, including the genocide in Gaza and the world war that may be starting in the Middle East even as we speak. I'm convinced that the same kinds of reckless Machavelian lunatics who are perpetrating genocide in Gaza are essentially the same group that orchestrated 9/11. And allowing these kinds of people to run the United States of America and lie to us all at this scale is just unacceptable.
That's one of the reasons I left two years ago. I no longer find the US habitable after this. But if we fix this problem, I would be very happy to come back and celebrate.
If the University of Wisconsin called you, apologized, and said, "You know what? We need you back. We made a mistake." Would you accept?
Well, I'd have to talk to my wife. We're pretty settled here in Saidia, Morocco. But I’d certainly go back and spend some time there.
The Deen Show: Do you see that happening now? This is starting to…this movement is continuing, the truth is getting out there. More and more people are questioning, people like congressmen, senators. You mentioned that you also have spoken to different congressmen that also now are questioning. Where do you see this going?
I think that it might actually take a crisis to force the issue. Because for every step forward that we make, the side that wants to cover this up finds some way of distracting the public. For instance, as I said, the Democrats were not only in favor of academic freedom to discuss this kind of thing, but a whole lot of Democrats were at least vaguely aware that there was a huge problem with the official story of 9/11. And of course, many of them blamed it on the Republican President Bush and (Vice President) Cheney.
And then Obama was elected in 2008 and suddenly it flipped. And people, especially Democrats, were largely put back to sleep. And now, interestingly enough, with the Trump movement of populists or fake populists in some cases, a lot of Republicans are open to this information, people like Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens.
But the number of Democrats, the percentage of Democrats, probably is not much higher now. It might even be lower than it was in, say, 2006, when the polls showed that 37% of the American people thought it likely or very likely that 9/11 was a false flag designed to launch wars.
So it’s a long haul. And to reach critical mass, it would take something even bigger than US senator Ron Johnson picking up where US representative Curt Weldon left off. It would take something more than Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson informing their audiences about it. We would really need some kind of big breakout. And what that would be, I don't know. Possibly the right insider leak of crucial information could help. And if somebody in charge of a major network really made the decision to go for it, then who knows.
So it's touch and go. I think we're probably closer to breaking this issue now than ever, and that's the way it's been unfortunately (for a long time).
The Deen Show: Don't we see this happening before in history, these events? You had discussed previously how if people start putting it together and seeing the patterns…for example the King David Hotel bombing. For people that don't know— most people don't know about these incidents— but, for instance, the King David Hotel bombing—wasn't this perpetuated by a certain group of people and then blamed—the intent was to blame Muslims for it.
And you have the Liberty ship? What is it called? The USS Liberty.
Another event that was false flag, and the intention was to blame Muslims, was the Levon affair. And you also had the weapons of mass destruction lie that took us into Iraq with a million lives being lost. It was also by this particular group of people, the Zionists, including Netanyahu, who got America involved.
You're an expert in this area. You know these events quite well.
And then you had some kind of dancing people who were dancing when this whole event happened. So it's not far-fetched that these events are perpetrated and then they try to go ahead and blame the Muslims. Can you touch upon these historical events and how they're actually not conspiracy theories, they’ve actually been uncovered as false flags?
Kevin Barrett: Candace Owens did a really good segment on the USS Liberty. It was an Israeli attack on a US spy ship working for the National Security Agency. Most people don't know much about that, but it was in the middle of the 1967 war. The US had sent that spy ship towards the war zone and the Israelis deliberately tried to sink it. They killed 34 people, wounded about 170 others, and nearly sent the ship to the bottom, which was their intent. They were hoping that after sinking the ship they would be able to blame it on Egypt and bring the US into Israel's war against Egypt.
You mentioned the Lavon Affair, when Israel bombed American targets in Egypt and tried to blame Egyptians.
And then we also have the issue of assassinations. The Israelis and before them the Zionists, before there was a state of Israel, were very strong on assassinating people. They they sent letter bombs to Truman and to Churchill. They tried to assassinate George HW Bush in Madrid during his presidency. That's an interesting one that people can look up. Most people never heard of that. And they most likely killed John F. Kennedy, and then presumably later his brother Robert. There's a lot of work on that. Michael Collins Piper wrote the seminal book Final Judgment, which has been followed up on by Laurent Guyenot, a French historian. Those who aren't aware of this can just stop and ask yourself: We know that Robert Kennedy was shot after he won the California primary in 1968. He would have almost certainly become president had he not been killed. And he was shot from point blank range from behind by a pistol held against his skull. It made powder burns on his skull. Sirhan Sirhan, the man who was blamed and convicted of that murder, was never closer than about fifteen feet, and he was in front of Senator Kennedy at the time. So somebody shot Robert Kennedy point blank from behind, and it was part of an orchestrated murder plot aimed at blaming Sirhan Sirhan. Now Sirhan Sirhan was a Palestinian, and he had been apparently hypnotized. He was found to be an extremely hypnotizable individual, and so he was hypnotized to randomly fire a few shots to distract everybody and allow the killer to kill Senator Kennedy. Now the question is: Who would choose a Palestinian patsy? What group would do that?
And when we ask that about what happened to Bobby Kennedy in 1968, then we go back to 1963 and we notice that after the murder of John F. Kennedy, the patsy, Lee Harvey Oswald, was killed before he could tell his story by a Jewish mafiosi, Jack Rubenstein, otherwise known as Jack Ruby. Ruby was a hitman and a bagman who worked for Mickey Cohen, who was the chief of Jewish organized crime on the West Coast, and also the man who had raised the most money for the state of Israel in all of American history. Mickey Cohen went up and down this West Coast shaking down everybody and raised I don't know how many tens or hundreds of millions of dollars for Israel.
So that was the guy whose hitman murdered Lee Harvey Oswald. And so you just put those two things together, the Palestinian patsy in one case and then the Jewish mafiosi with connections to Israel killing Leah Harvey Oswald, and you're a step towards seeing who's behind these kinds of crimes.
In the case of of John F. Kennedy, he was likely killed primarily because he was dedicated to shutting down Israel's nuclear program. And President Johnson, who took over after Kennedy thanks to Kennedy's murder, was a huge supporter of Israel, who allowed Israel to steal American nuclear weapons. And then Johnson conspired with Israel in the 1967 war and was complicit in the attack on the USS Liberty. Johnson was quoted as saying, when he was first informed that the Liberty was in trouble, “'I want that bleep bleep ship to go to the bottom.” And he was actually in bed with an Israeli Mossad spy at the time that he was interrupted about the USS Liberty.
So essentially the same group of people has been so reckless in their terrorism and their assassinations since long before Israel was founded. There's a book called State of Terror by Thomas Suarez that goes into how—the subtitle is How Israel Created Modern Terrorism. And of course it actually happened before Israel was even founded. The Zionists slaughtered not just Palestinians but also the British. They slaughtered their fellow Jews who were not radical enough in pushing for a Jewish state there. And that kind of mayhem has only accelerated since the creation of the state of Israel with this long history of false flag terrorism.
I kind of downplayed this when I first started talking about 9/11. I just wanted to show that the official story couldn't possibly be true. I didn't want to point too hard at the perpetrators, especially Israel, because if you point the finger at Israel, you get all kinds of pushback and it's harder to get any kind of media attention, except for the wrong kind. But at some point, it became so obvious to me that it's just unavoidable. Every foreign policy expert will agree that the only real geostrategic beneficiary of 9/11 was the state of Israel, because it tricked the American military into coming in and basically removing the problematic regimes in the region that Israel didn't like— with one exception, Iran. And look what's happening now.
The state of Israel has been compared to the toxoplasmosis parasite that takes over the brains of cats and mice and makes them act in self-destructive ways. And that's kind of what the state of Israel has done to the United States. It's taken over the command and control system in the same way toxoplasmosis takes over the brain of its victims. And it's marching the US into disaster, one disaster after another: the loss of freedom, wasting eight trillion dollars on wars for Israel that are against US strategic interests, and now today risking World War III in this crazy war on Iran. I think that if we solve 9/11, if we expose 9/11 and show that it was primarily orchestrated by the state of Israel and its American assets, I think we'll be in a position to cleanly sever the connection with this psychotic settler colonial genocide project that's squatting in occupied Palestine.
The Deen Show: This history that many people do not know is very important because it dispels the myth—because when you bring up Israel, when you bring up Jews, the people out there, the politicians and whatnot, they'll try to make it look like, “oh Muslims hate Jews” and whatnot, but when you study history, when Muslims were the superpower in Spain, when you look at many academics—I've had on many Jewish rabbis who have come on and who have testified to this, they thank Muslims who actually took them in from Christian persecution. And David Warrenstein writes in the Jewish Chronicles that Islam saved Jewry. So how can you be taking Jews in and saving them if your religion calls you to hate them? How do you like to answer this?
Kevin Barrett: It's a very interesting issue, and very complicated. The short version is that Muslims got along better with Jews throughout most of history than Christians did. That's unquestionable. And why that is—it's a long debate, but probably the biggest single factor is that in Islam we have injunctions to protect minority religious communities and to act with impartial justice. Muslim rulers haven't been perfect, obviously, but the general thrust of Islamic dogma and teaching is that we are supposed to respect and protect minority religions starting with Christianity and Judaism. So for that reason, Muslim rulers tended to allow Christian and Jewish minority communities to run their own affairs, and they often thrived under Muslim rule, notably in Islamic Spain, for quite some time, many centuries in fact. The Christian and Jewish communities there were doing very well.
So it obviously isn't that Islam has some problem with Jews—or Christians for that matter. The real issue is that a certain extremist version of Jewish messianic millenarianism has mutated into Zionism. A lot of people, including many Jews, the Naturei Karta Jews and others, would argue that Zionism is actually satanic. It's not properly Jewish, because the traditional Jewish belief was that returning to the Holy Land would only happen when God made it happen, and that Jews themselves should not even lift a little finger to make it happen. But bit by bit a radical extremist fringe within Judaism pushed that away and started preaching that Jews should go back to the Holy Land and found their own state by hook or by crook, even by very unethical means. And so here we are today with much of the Jewish community actually convinced that this is a good idea to have Jews invade the Holy Land and create a Jewish state there even at the expense of the Palestinians who've been living there forever.
So it's a very tragic situation. And because the Zionists have captured much of the Jewish community, that's led to friction between Jews and Muslims, because Muslims are taught to respect justice, and what's happening in Palestine is such a grave injustice. It's so extreme that genocide is being perpetrated in the Holy Land! That's just not acceptable to Muslims. And so that's led to tension between Muslims and Jews. And it doesn't need to be there. And once Zionism is finished, I don't think we'll see anything like that tension again.
The Deen Show: Are you are you familiar with the Scofield Bible and John Nelson Derby and the Christian Zionism that stems from them, and how Christians now believe this is a part of their faith, to support this modern-day holocaust that's happening against innocent men, women, children. Babies are being just decimated there. And now Christians who are supposed to—they promote love, Jesus the prince of peace, but they're supporting this because they feel it's a part of their creed. (But) this is false. This was never part of the Christian teachings. This dispensationalism, can you go into that a little bit? Are you familiar with the con artist who got funding from Zionists, and they ended up pushing over a million copies for free into the universities and churches? And slowly this is being uncovered as a scam?
This is not part of Christian teachings! And then you often hear this verse constantly. You just had Tucker Carlson with Senator Ted Cruz. Did you see that interview? And then Cruz is misquoting the Bible, and he's saying whoever blesses Israel is blessed in Genesis. Whoever curses is cursed. And then in the footnotes in the Scofield Bible, this is where they get this idea that you have to support this state, but in actuality it is talking about Abraham. It's not connected to the modern state. Can you go into this a little bit?
Kevin Barrett: It was in the 19th century…Cyrus P. Scofield was a pretty dubious character, not even all that literate, a bit of a snake oil salesman, and somehow he ended up with his name on this very popular Bible, which as you said has been printed all over the world. I think it was Oxford that that took it somehow.
The Deen Show: Yeah. He obviously had help. Scoffield did not act alone.
Yeah, there was a orchestrated effort to get Christians on board with Zionism. There's been a lot of money and power and propaganda behind this. Obviously some of the world's wealthiest most powerful people have been hardcore Zionist ideologues… But in terms of Christian ideology, it's really quite astounding that Christians who are taught that Jesus peace upon him was was the prince of peace who turned the other cheek and so on, although he was pretty hard on those money changers in the temple…But the Bible's or the New Testament's account of the career of Jesus is obviously completely contradictory to supporting genocide and these horrors that we're seeing in Palestine. So there's been a major propaganda operation to try to convince Christians to support this genocidal Zionist project. And I think part of the reason that it's worked is that…the Bible is divided into the Old Testament which is the Torah and the New Testament which is the Injil or the Gospels. And the Old Testament or the Torah reads a lot like a sort of tribal myth, a myth of tribal conquests and a tribe’s conflicts with its neighbors. And it records a history of the Jewish people in which it seems that throughout much of that early history, their version of God was not the universal God that we know today, but rather a tribal god who is viewed by his followers as just one among many gods, but he's the god of of their tribe. And he tells them to go out and smash the idols, meaning the gods of the other tribes, and steal their loot and give it to Yahweh, or give it to the high priests of Yahweh.
So, there's a lot of the Old Testament that is really pretty problematic from the standpoint of people who whose holy books are either the Quran or the New Testament. And I think that by steering Christians towards a really a unsophisticated and morally indefensible reading of the Old Testament, the Zionists have succeeded in brainwashing them and turning them into something very very different from real Christians. Christianity is a religion of love and that's great. I think it was Schuon who said that Christianity is a religion of love and Islam is a religion of knowledge. But of course they both have both. Islam has plenty of love and and Christianity has plenty of knowledge. But the reality of Christianity and of universal monotheism has been distorted by this bad interpretation of these problematic elements of the Old Testament. So that's where I think the problem lies. Christians were vulnerable to this because they accept the Old Testament as inerrant gospel in which every single word comes straight from God. And we Muslims of course know that the earlier revelations (including the extant Torah) were to some extent distorted by the transmitters. And so we don't have to accept every bizarre or immoral thing that we might come across in the Old Testament, because we have a well-preserved book, the Quran. So I think there are Christians who haven't figured out how to deal with the Old Testament properly. And this would be more Protestants actually than Catholics or Orthodox Christians. Protestants have been (especially) vulnerable to this brainwashing by the Zionists.
Just a couple more questions. We were dispelling this myth of Islam and Muslims having anything to do with this evil event (9/11). And now with more and more people, the senators being on the news, the congressman, the greatest host of Fox News actually talking about this, raising questions, more and more people are starting to not believe the official narrative. Do you think people are going to finally wake up, if this continues to to come out, and realize that Islam truly has nothing to do with such evil actions, that Islam is being used as a scapegoat, and that those people will start to shift to more of an affinity now away from all the negativity? Do you think this can shift them into raising questions about the event and the official narrative being programmed for so long to think negatively about Islam that they can start also looking into Islam to see really truly what the teachings of Islam are and hopefully leading them to see the beauty of this way of life that's actually from the creator, submission to the will of God not the creation? What do you think?
Yeah, inshallah that can happen. We've seen some of it already. Interestingly enough, even during the periods of the strongest demonization of Islam, some folks who didn't know anything at all about it looked into it and found the beauty of it and came to Islam. And that process has been ongoing. But it's been kind of swimming against the current. Today, if we actually do get a complete reconsideration of the war on terror and a reconsideration of Zionism—they're tied in together—I think that shift very likely could open up even more minds, in much greater numbers, than we've seen in the past.
WHEN GOD'S SUCCOUR comes and victory
and thou seest people enter God's religion in hosts
extol thy Sustainer's limitless glory and praise Him and seek His forgiveness: for behold He is ever an acceptor of repentance. (Surah 110)
I think the West uh really needs a lot of the values that Islam carries (such as) an insistence on justice. That's so important. It's just a lot more clear in Islamic teaching that we're supposed to aim at full impartial justice and that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala (demands it). That teaching is really important in a world where injustice is so far out of control. And there are all sorts of other areas too where traditional values and family values have fallen by the wayside, and Islam has not succumbed to that as much as some of the other traditions have. I think Western people could benefit from that.
And then finally there's the mysticism. That's what first attracted me to Islam: the way that we can actually experience a taste of getting closer to the Divine. And that's ultimately the real test of religion in the modern age. We've got so much information around us. We can hear “this is what the Buddhists think. This is what the Muslims, the Jews, the Christians, the atheists, the materialists, the existentialists, all these different schools of thought…” We can see them all talking and arguing. It's all right there. With a click of your phone you can hear it. And in that situation we can hear the dogmas and the ideas, the disembodied ideas of everybody. Well that's all great. The idea of justice, as I said, is great. But what we really need is to be able to get a little taste of the reality of it, to know it like people who've actually had an experience where they have been overwhelmed by feeling a kind of a closeness to God and actually a change of consciousness. Those people are not going to ever change after that. They've know that it's real. And I think that Islam has an incredibly rich heritage of this sort of thing. And that if you're going to taste the reality of the absolute transcendent starting out with the Islamic teaching is more likely to get you there on the straight path than if you start out with ideology around the Jewish tribe, or around the person of Jesus and dogmas about the trinity and crucifixion and this and that, ideas about how you have to believe, that it's all just about belief, and if you believe this or that you'll be saved. All of these things that have crept into other religions can be distracting. I think Islam really offers a a very straight clean version of the essential truth of monotheism, and it's not only good for the abstract ideas, but also for tasting the reality. We get a little bit of a taste of that reality each time we pray, and we can cultivate it to whatever extent we're capable of. So yeah, I think the West could use a hard look at the positive side of Islam.
I think even the hardliners those who can love and support the (Jewish) people who say the nastiest, vilest things about Jesus, that he's in the hellfire burning in feces. His mother laid down with a Roman soldier. And on the other side, you have us (Muslims) who love and revere Jesus as the Bible calls him, a prophet, the Messiah. That there's a whole chapter that is in the verbatim word of God Almighty, the Quran, named after his blessed mother. Most of them don't know these facts. I find it ironic that I'll try to reach out and talk to some Christians, come together, hardliners who'll be on X, and they'll be just spewing all this hate. I say, "Hey, have you ever broke bread with a Muslim? Let's let's go ahead and talk. You can go ahead and form a relationship with someone who's cursing your God and savior. But here, if you say one negative thing we believe about Jesus, if you deny Jesus, that you can end up in hellfire." Is that correct?
Yeah. And I think that's especially important today. We we have this sense of (being in) the end times, whether it's because of nuclear war being just one button push away, or artificial intelligence could get out of control and create the singularity and that would be the end for us, and so on. Technology has made our situation both more comfortable and more precarious. And there is this sense that we're sort of at the end. So I think that we need to look at what these religions say about the end of things. And essentially, the last word for both Islam and Christianity is that Jesus is the Messiah. And when he comes back, whatever that means—maybe it means his spiritual values return to the world, that things will be radically better—and on the other side, the Jewish teaching has traditionally been very hostile to Jesus as you said. So if we are in this end time stage of the Christ versus the Antichrist, let's face it, the Muslims and the Christians are both on the side of Jesus alaihi as-salam. And maybe some some Jews are, but the bulk of the Jewish tradition is that the Jews are basically the group that rejected Jesus. That's the definition. The Jews who accepted Jesus now call themselves Christians (or Muslims). So if we're in the end times and the figure of Jesus, the one and only true Messiah, is is crucial to everybody's notion of the end times: Hey Christians, who do you want to be with? The people who who love Jesus and are praying for his return, or the people who are boiling him in excrement? I would think that would be a no-brainer.
Thank you, Dr. Barrett. Thank you very much for sharing some time with us, going over these reactions. God bless you. It was good having you on the program again.
Thanks, Eddie. It's a great conversation. Appreciate it. Keep up the great work.
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