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Interview with Olivier Clerc
On Modern Medicine, Catholic Church, World Religion, Forgiveness and more.
In many ways, this substack is a daisy chain.
One interest to the next.
One thread to the next.
One discovery to the next.
And so…
This interview came about when I asked Josh Walkos…
You have quoted Olivier Clerc's comparison of modern medicine to the historical role of the Catholic Church. Could you elaborate on this analogy and its implications for individual autonomy and informed consent?
Clerc’s book “Modern Medicine, the New World Religion '' draws many comparisons with Modern Medicine and Religion. Here are a few I think are spot on. He writes:
Medicine, then, has become the new world religion. The specific myths, beliefs, and rites of Christianity have been unconsciously projected into medicine since Pasteur. As I explain in detail in the next chapters, we can establish very close parallels between Christianity and modern medicine.
In brief:
- physicians have taken the place of priests.
- vaccination plays the same initiatory role as baptism and is accompanied by the same threats and fears.
- the search for health has replaced the quest for salvation.
- the fight against disease has replaced the fight against sin.
- eradication of viruses has taken the place of exorcising demons.
- The hope of physical immortality (cloning, genetic engineering) has been substituted for the hope of eternal life.
- pills have replaced hosts.
- donations to cancer research take precedence over donations to the Church.
- a hypothetical universal vaccine could save humanity from all its illnesses, as the Savior has saved the world from all its sins.
- The medical power has become the government's ally, as was the Catholic Church in the past.
- charlatans are persecuted today as ‘heretics’ were yesterday, and dogmatism rules our promising alternative medical theories.
- the same absence of individual responsibility is now found in medicine, as previously in the Christian religion.
- and finally, patients are alienated from their bodies, as sinners used to be from their souls.
I find these comparisons to be quite compelling and applicable to the medico-pharmaceutical-complex religion today.
That was so on the money, that I had to look up the book and Olivier Clerc.
I contacted Olivier and invited him to an interview, and I’m so grateful he agreed. This valuable exchange definitely improved my understanding and visibility of where we are and how we got here.
More people should know of Olivier and his work.
With thanks to Olivier Clerc.
1. Olivier, can you please tell us a bit about your background and journey that led you to become an author focused on topics like spirituality, personal development, and alternative perspectives on modern medicine?
I discovered personal development and spirituality back in 1978, when I was 17, during a year spent in the US as a foreign exchange student. It became my passion. I wrote my first book (on lucid dreaming) when I was 21, and then – as a self-made man – went on to become a translator and an interpreter for US authors in this field, coming to France and Switzerland.
Later, I also became a publisher and the chief-editor of two magazines specialized in this same area (including health and ecology too). To this day, I have translated 100 books from English, and published 26 books of my own (including children’s books, over the past 4 years), with translations in 17 languages.
I am a very practical person. My books all aim at giving practical tools and advice on how to improve one’s life, health, relationships, including our relationship with a dimension of transcendence, however you like to call it (God, the Source, the One, etc.).
2. In your book "Modern Medicine: The New World Religion", you draw fascinating parallels between medicine and religion. What inspired you to explore this unique perspective?
In 1992, I read a book written by two sociologists and an anthropologist from Switzerland that showed that our so-called “secular” modern society is not secular at all. Like a bottle of perfume, when modern society broke the flask of the one predominant religion that was found in most Western countries, its religious perfume spread over everything, literally, these authors wrote. Movie stars and singers became idols. Sports events became religious ceremonies. Watching the 8 pm news on TV became a ritual. Our relationships to food, to ecology, to practically everything became permeated with an unconscious religious dimension.
Strangely enough, though, these three Swiss authors missed the ONE area where this transposition of religion on the secular world was the most obvious, the most spectacular, and had the most far reaching consequences: MEDICINE!
Having been raised a Catholic I immediately saw that modern medicine was built as an exact parallel of the Catholic Church, in its smallest details, as I wrote in Modern Medicine, the New World Religion (Personhood Press 2004), a very small book that had quite an impact when it came out. Numerous doctors and even professors wrote me to tell me how they finally understood what was going on in their practice, in their relationships with their patients, in medical research, and so on.
Sadly so, what happened during the covid pandemic showed in an obvious manner this religious dimension of modern medicine. Physics and chemistry are the same all over the world. Because they are sciences. The same experiments yield the same results. But with medicine in general, and covid in particular, we saw that this drug was allowed here, but forbidden there. Doctors were not allowed to prescribe what they thought was appropriate. They were forced to stick to dogmas, even contrary to facts and results. Otherwise, they were called heretics (= conspiracy theorists), lost their jobs and their rights to publish. This had NOTHING scientific at all! The whole behavior of medical and political authorities was purely religious: it was dictated by emotions (religion has to do with the heart), not by reason, logic and thinking, as science should be.
Interestingly, the father of modern medicine is Louis Pasteur: Pasteur means “shepherd” in French. And indeed, Pasteur has been the shepherd of this new medical religion, its prophet. In the same way that it used to be said “There is no salvation outside the Church”, today we are told “There is no health outside modern medicine”. There was a time where you could not freely choose your religion: today, you cannot freely choose how to heal yourself, how to take care of your health. In many countries of the past, the Church ruled the State. Today, the same happens with Big Pharma. In France, it’s only in 1905 that the State and the Church were separated, by a law of secularism. Today, I suggest that we need a new law to separate the State from medical and pharmaceutical influences, so that all of us can freely choose our “medical religion”, what we believe in, as far as our health is concerned. The choice is vast: ayurveda, Chinese medicine, homeopathy, aromatherapy, phytotherapy… and you don’t have to limit yourself to just one of them. As a lot of people do today with religion – i.e., mixing Christianism, with elements of Buddhism, Sufism, shamanism, Hinduism, you name it – you could take the best of the different medicines available to take care of your own health. But that wasn’t the case during covid. You were not allowed to freely choose your treatment.
We CANNOT understand modern medicine, what is going on with genetic engineering, the issues around abortion, vaccines, antibiotics, etc., if we do not understand this deeply religious dimension of medicine.
And we should not be surprised that it is so. Prophets of ancient times healed both the souls and the bodies of people who followed them. Look at Jesus, for instance. It took centuries to separate medicine from religion, to separate bodies from souls, whereas they were thought to be one, for long. Even though they are indeed separate, today, they are in fact ruled by the same laws and principles. Medicine will never be pure science. It is an art. Because we are humans, we have a soul, we think, we have feelings. We are not machines and should not be treated as such.
3. You argue that many religious myths, fears and rituals have been unconsciously transferred into the medical realm. Can you give a few examples of how this manifests in medical practices and beliefs ?
The doctor has taken the place of the priest, the search for health has replaced the quest for salvation, the hope of physical immortality (through clones, genetic manipulation, etc.) is taking over the expectation of eternal life, vaccination has exactly the same initiatory function as baptism (and its refusal arouses the same fears), and there’s even a growing hope that a universal vaccine will save us tomorrow from all diseases, just as the Savior redeemed all the sins of the world. Donations to science replace donations to the Church. Nurses have replaced nuns. Medicine has its own judicial system, with the Medical Council, and it practices its own form of Inquisition. Quacks have replaced heretics and are fought just the same. And so on. Of course, you find nothing of the sort in physics or chemistry. There is no Council of Physics or Council of Chemistry to tell you what you have to believe in, and what is allowed or not.
4. What are some of the key dangers or limitations you see in medicine taking on this sort of religious role in society? How does it impact medical research and progress?
Religion used to say there can be no more than 7 planets on the sky, because there are 7 colors, and 7 notes in the musical scale. Seven is a sacred number, you see. Because of these false beliefs, it took decades to discover planets beyond Saturn. This is just one example of how belief, in general, keeps us from looking at facts, at truth, at what is really there.
When medicine acts in a religious manner, whole areas of research are banned, useful ways of treating and powerful drugs are dismissed and not used (as happened during covid). Beliefs make you wear blinders. You see only what you want to see, and you refuse to see what your dogmas tell you does (not or even should not) exist. It brings us back in the Middle Ages. This is not science, it is scientism, which means turning science into a set of beliefs. It’s a dangerous religion because it is not aware of being one.
For the past 40 years, I have seen over and over again so many amazing possibilities for curing this or that disease, or – even better – preventing them, that are not being used, because they do not fit with the ruling medical doctrine.
5. In recognizing medicine's role as a sort of new world religion, what do you think needs to change? How can we disentangle genuine science and health practices from dogma and superstition?
When you are a Catholic, a Jew, a Muslim or a Hindu, you know you have a religion. Not so with the prevailing medical religion. How can you change your religion, if you are not even aware that you have one? If you mistake it with pure science, devoid of any beliefs? This is almost impossible. It would take a huge awakening. But imagine how scary that is! What you thought was absolutely real, scientific and all, and totally reliable, reveals itself as presenting a considerable amount of belief. A religious dimension. What a shock it is!
Therefore, usually people start by discovering other medicines, other ways of treating themselves (after their original treatment failed), before being able to let go of their former medical beliefs, before being able to see them as actual beliefs.
Incidentally I very strongly recommend two books of my friend Dr Lewis Mehl-Madrona, Coyote Wisdom and Narrative medicine, in which he shows the major role played by beliefs and stories in any form of medicine. This may help readers get a better understanding of what modern medicine is really about. Of course it is based on science, it uses a lot of technology too, but again, you cannot fully understand what it is and what is our relationship with it, if you miss its religious components.
6. At an individual level, how do you think we can become more aware of the hidden beliefs and fears that may be unconsciously influencing our thinking and behavior? What practices do you recommend?
Let’s be honest here. This is a long and difficult process, not for the faint hearted. We are literally immersed in beliefs: political beliefs, economic beliefs, beliefs about food, about ecology, about climate… everything. Most of what we think we know is actually only belief. That is a reality. That is a truth. But to accept to see that is very difficult to do for most of us.
Twenty years ago, I translated in French Michael Misita’s book, How to Believe in Nothing & Set Yourself Free (Paperback – 1994). It’s an excellent book, because the author shares with his readers his own mind-blowing discovery of how most of everything he thought he knew for sure, was actually just belief. And how that insight changed his whole life. I myself wrote a book in French about this topic, offering a simple yet powerful tool, The four-stage sieve. Unfortunately, it does not exist in English…
7. You emphasize the importance of taking personal responsibility for our own health and spiritual growth. What advice would you give to someone looking to rely less on external authorities and develop greater self-trust and autonomy?
I would suggest starting with small steps, small things. Learning to breathe. Learning the basics of a healthy diet. Learning to meditate. Learning how to heal small health problems with simple natural means. Don’t start with cancer! ;-)
We spend years in school and when we are finished, “we know everything about everything… and nothing else (!)”, as a famous French humorist used to say. He meant that we know nothing practical, nothing about our bodies, about health, about food, about emotional balance, about discernment, about how not to be manipulated. Noam Chomsky said: “If we had a real school system, it would be a course in intellectual self-defense.” He wrote about the “manufacturing of consent”. We cannot blindly trust anyone, in this world today. We have to experiment, to verify, to double check. We need to become responsible for our own life, our health, our well-being, our personal evolution. We need personal experience, then. Freedom is not something anyone can give you. You have to earn it. Thomas Jefferson said, “You cannot be free and ignorant.” But learning, experimenting takes time. And for this you need to avoid “weapons of mass distraction” ! It’s a real challenge, in today’s world. But its benefits are huge.
8. In your book "The Gift of Forgiveness", you share about a powerful forgiveness ritual you experienced with Don Miguel Ruiz that became a turning point in your life. Can you tell us a bit more about what happened and how it impacted you?
I made a short 12 min video, with subtitles in 6 languages, that shares that life changing experience which I described in detail in my book. I would advise your readers to watch it here:
9. Your book explores forgiveness as a potent tool for personal healing and transformation. In your experience, what are some of the most common obstacles or misunderstandings that prevent people from embracing forgiveness?
This is the topic of my second book on forgiveness, Healing the Wounds of the Heart: the 15 major obstacles to forgiveness, and how to overcome them, also published by Findhorn Press / Inner Traditions.
Briefly, here are some of them, that are explained in detail in the book:
- Forgiveness would exclusively be a religious practice
- Forgiving would amount to condoning, accepting, and excusing
- If we have forgiven, we should forget
- Mistaking the person and the action
- Etc.
10. Shifting gears to "The Five Agreements Game", this book builds upon Don Miguel Ruiz's well-known "Four Agreements" framework. What inspired you to expand upon his work and add a fifth agreement to the mix?
I did not add the Fifth Agreement! Don Miguel did, with his son don José, 10 years after The Four Agreements were published. My own contribution resides in turning all these agreements into a game that people can play. It’s a powerful way to learn to use these agreements, in a practical way, to improve any of your relationships that is bothering you.
But what people have most loved about my own approach to this teaching, is that I offer a correspondence between each of these agreements and one element of a knight’s equipment. For instance, Be impeccable with your word is the sword or the Toltec knight: it’s a two-edged sword, that we can either use to defend and protect… or to wound and kill. Don’t take anything personally is the knight’s shield: with that shield, no arrow can wound you anymore. And so on. Each agreement becomes not only a short sentence, but an image that also triggers your right brain. Kids love it! I wrote a book to share the Four Agreements with children, based on this analogy with chivalry.
11. In "The Five Agreements Game", you present the agreements as a sort of "chivalry of relationships" - a code of conduct for interacting with others with integrity and respect. How have you seen individuals and communities put these agreements into practice to create more harmony in their relationships?
This game is being played in families, among colleagues in a company, in associations, etc. It highly increases our emotional and relational capacities. And, as I wrote above, it is now also used in schools (the chivalry approach, not the game). When we are kids, we learn everything by playing. I believe that even as adults, we can learn many things in a playful manner. It is very efficient!
12. What are you currently focused on in your work and writing? And for readers who want to dive deeper into your work, what's the best way for them to stay connected with you and your offerings?
Over the past 4-5 years, to my own surprise (!), I have become a renown children books author. My idea was to share the fundamental practices of personal development and spirituality with very young children, starting age 3 or 4.
My first children book was based on NonViolent Communication, since I am the one who translated and published Marshall Rosenberg’s founding book Words are windows (or they are walls), 26 years back, in French. My book immediately had a huge success and was translated in 8 languages, including Chinese, Russian, Korean, Italian… but strangely enough not English yet!
I think that offering the next generations an opportunity to learn very early on tools and methods that will help them become the best version of themselves is among the most important things we can do today. Changing full grown adults takes much more time and is much more difficult! Plus, when you write children books, you are touching three generations: the kids themselves, of course, but very often their parents and grandparents too. And if you have found a way to say things so simply that a small kids can understand what you write, then the older readers will get it too!! ;-)
Being a Franco-Swiss author, most of my work and websites are in French. I have one website in English:
The Gift Of Forgiveness | Olivier Clerc | Healing the wounds of the heart
Should I give trainings in English again, in foreign countries, in the future, the information will be shared on this website. Of course, if any of your readers speak French, they can check all my other websites and social media at: https://linktr.ee/olivierclerc
My books in English here: https://tinyurl.com/5n7fwu6v
My videos in English here:
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